Psychoneuroimmunology

that was quiet awesome…i think i'm ready to die…lol

seriously though, it was very hypnotic, and the visuals were beautiful…

i am in agreement that stress and the emotional traumas that we supress can contribute to illness, however, i think the conditions that surround us have a lot to do with it also…

iow…if someone stays out in freezing weather, and their system is already taxed by stress or emotional illness, they might die from pnuemonia…otoh, if their immune system were strong, they might suffer a less severe case, and pull through…

i am a systems theorist, so just looking at part of the whole, is not a clear picture…every system affects every other system…our body can affect our mind, and vice versa…but our  environment can affect both…

anyways, thnx for posting this, i tend to believe that it has more to do with our energies then we can imagine, but that does not mean that we can think our way out of illness, although, our thoughts can aide in our recovery…or, make recovery impossible.

i read a book a while back, Good Life, Good Death by Gehlek Rimpoche…it spoke of our karmic traces of past lives, but also made a point of the conditions one finds themselves in, and pointed out that we could change our karma, in the here and now…so that we are not bound by that necessarily…it was a nice little read, but the main thing, is that we live a good life in the here and now, and hopefully, we will have a good death…

death is a part of life…i am not certain what i believe, if anything concerning any of the teachings of afterlife…i have studied them all i think…but i am certain that i am here now…and i am determined to make the best of that…and let come what may….getting all caught up in conceptualism as to what is going to happen after i die, is ridiculous to me now…i say, live like there is no tomorrow!  in a responsible way…of course!  lol…

always, star…

oh i agree that fear is not a healthy response…but a learned one…

actually, i think the explaination concerning death from the Lion King is the best i ever heard…LOL

you're sneaky…you added some pictures…lol

want to play doctor?  LOL

i was thinking of this when i woke up this morning; which is usual for me, although i do not have any concrete proof, awareness takes what i have exposed it to during conscious time, and integrates it while 'i' sleep…and more times than not, i awaken with clarity on whatever subject my reasoning mind was previously focused on…(what is really weird, is that if i don't actually 'wake up', but go back to sleep, the clarity diminishes…

anyways, i am a stickler for experiences, so here is one for the medical books…

i have two ruptured jaw discs, one in my neck, and a herniated disc in my low-back…once upon a time all i could do was live on pills…however; the past two years +, that has changed…i said all that to say this…

in my experience, the mind plays a very large role in whether or not this pain intensifies or eases…i always have pain in my body somewhere, but depending on how well i am able to focus my mind elsewhere (and i have gotten to be quiet the expert at this out of necessity), i am able to divert attention, and the pain may not completely go away, but it is not recognized, as my mind is not focused on it…

now there are times, when i still get overwhelmed…during which i have things that i can do…hot/cold baths tend to shock the pain…light strecthing, and deep breathing… meditating and going deeper into a relaxed state, opening my mind, and sinking into my own true nature…but if my mind is too busy, then as a last resort, i will take a tylenol…but i have noticed, the more i am able to focus on something else…the easier it is…and i am not at all convinced that the tylenol has much if anything to do with it, past the 'idea' of taking it…although, could be that it reduces some of the inflamation that is causing the pain…

when you bring the idea of conditions into the mix…if the air is high in allergy pollutents, my eyes swell, and the headaches get severe, and it takes a few hours for that to be allieved…if it is raining or cold weather, that really seems to affect my level of pain…and if i go beyond my physical limits (lifting something i shouldn't or bending alot or putting too much of a strain on my low back or neck…etc)…i am lobel to be stuck on the couch for weeks at a time…lol…just how much of these 'other' things that i am doing is really affecting the problem, or if it is just my 'thinking' that they will affect the problem…this is not known…

i have also noticed, that although i am not a depressive personality, when i get sick, or in pain, i tend to feel defeated, and that makes it worse than it may be in reality…all being said and done, i am very active, or i try to be…i walk, and swim…not as much as i would like to, and i do believe i should have a routine, but i tend to not stick to one…lol…i also dance and sing…but mostly…i write…that seems to have been my salvation…and continues at this time to be…

i use to get deep tissue massages, and i was always amazed at how much this actually helped, but also, would make me sick…years ago i did alot of research on kinesiology, and found out that toxins are released, as i am sure you already know, and if too many toxins are released at once, then this can actually poisen the system…

at one point, many years ago, i was a patient at the Vanderbilt Pain Clinic, and one of the doctors there was actually studying a more holistic approach; i was having severe breathing problems from a 'bruised' diaphragm, and he was able to break some of the problem up by 'hands on' manipulation…i had an overwhelming emotional response to it, where some physical child abuse was revealed…that must of scared the crap out of him, as he was a still a student, and he refused to continue the work…although i have continued it on my own…with good results…

it is interesting, at least to me, to investigate ways of dealing with these actual physical pains, as i have had all the surgeries i am willing to have, and to see if my body is still not holding emotional traumatic memories…i highly suspect it is…lol

wow…i had forgotten most of this, but as it relates to your post, i thought i would share…thnx for opening up this avenue of discussion…always, star…

Julian seems to do a lot of work relieving this kind of “stuck energy.” It is all very fascinating to me, and it deconstructs the traditional separation between consciousness and the body in a way I absolutely love.

i agree…the problem is, as i see it, my part of the country is so 'way behind' those enlightened Californians…LOL…in more ways than one…and so there is really not a good selection where i live…”The Bible Belt”…OMG…rotflmao…but i have managed thus far, and continue to educate myself on these issues…

i actually lived in South Lake Tahoo, back in the late 80's…that was when everyone, and i do mean everyone, was addicted to getting as high as those beautiful mountains…LOL…i was no different…lived there a year, and it was amazing…worked in a health food store…OMG…haha…

on a more serious note however, Barack has been in the news of late glorifying Californians for their success in reducing gas emmisions, and their willingness to actually invest in and use superior environmentally conscious technology…and promises to use their foundation as a framework for the entire United States…

their preventive health care idiology will just have to trickle down i suppose…we can't all pick up and move to California…LOL

Matt, i wanted to add something else to the focus of this blog as it just came to mind…

i lost my father to cancer when i was young; he had lived a very hard life; grew up in New York; abandoned by his mother and father; beaten by the nuns where he was also sheltered; lots of shadows there, at a time when the world frowned on any kind of psychological treatment or recovery…their idea was just to work hard and long, be honest and responsible…and ignore the rest, and of course apply the antidote of christianity, which my dad was not all that big on…

anyways, he worked in a hospital, with chemicals that he used to stain things with, in a small area that was not properly ventilated, and so years of being exposed to this environment led him to experience continual bouts with pnuemonia, which he would periodically recover with antibiotic treatments, only to manifest the illness at a later time…

eventually, they biopsied the nodes on his lungs, and found them to be cancerous, and of course after the proceedure, the cancer spread like wildfire, and he was gone in a manner of months…

in the movie 'Mindwalk', which was based on the book 'Turning Point' by Fritjof Capra, based on Systems Theory, the physicist explains to the politician during a debate on whether the Cartesian method of mechanically removing the diseased part was appropriate and considered to be avantageous, that although the removal of the diseased part may very well be necessary, it would only serve as a temporary bandaide…unless the actual issues of stress that actually caused the immune system to allow the interferrence in the first place (primary cause) were suficiently addressed…the stress would appear at a later date, in yet another area…iow…the conditions, if not altered, would be active in supporting the initial cause…

something to think about…

To condition the rats, he used a combination of saccharine-laced water and the drug Cytoxan which induces nausea and suppresses the immune system. Ader was surprised to discover that after conditioning, just feeding the rats saccharine-laced water was sufficient to suppress the immune system of the rats. In other words, a signal via the nervous system (taste) was affecting immune function. This was one of the first scientific experiments that demonstrated that the nervous system can affect the immune system” (wikipedia).

i am not a scientist or a doctor mind you, but i have had plenty of life experiences to draw on, and i've read a few books…LOL…

however; it would appear that the taste alone of the saccharine, may have triggered a memory in the brain of the rat…which then triggered the memory of the reaction…causing another similiar reaction…

we can apply this to our everyday experiences…i am sure it would not be hard for me to come up with one…will rest with it a minute and just let awareness do it's thing…lol

maybe you have one readily available…or someone else has an example?

i think i have a good one…and one that i still have problems with…

it is directly related to the experience i shared earlier, concerning my bruised diaphragm…

my father died when i was 22, and during one of my 'sober' periods…well, i see it is as changing addictions, i was just addicted to the escapism of religion at the time instead of drugs or alcohol…

anyways, i soon afterward found out that i was pregnant with my daughter (when i was studying Buddhism i often wondered if my father left the bardo and became my daughter…lol…the timing is perfect), and as the pregnancy evolved, so did my difficulty in breathing…she was pressed against my diaphragm, the bigger she got the harder it was for me to breath, and the doctors were dumbfounded as to what to do…

they told me many things; among them, was that once i had my daughter (which i finally did through a c-section after carrying her 6 weeks over), i would be ok…that did not happen…lol…then another doctor told me that i had a bruised diaphragm, and that it would take up to 10 years for it to heal…and that didn't happen…another psychotherapist, told me that i had psychologically refused to allow myself to grieve for my father, and that through a process of hypnosis, and going through the psychological motions of burying him and allowing myself to grieve, that i would be cured…that didn't happen either…lol

after having that experience when that student doctor was rolfing the area, where you can actually feel the knotting, i did have an emotional memory submerge…my father use to unmercifully tickle me into tears…it hurt so badly, that to this day, i cannot bear for anyone to tickle my ribs…it actually is very painful…but something was released that day, and for a while i was able to breath deeper and easier…

of course, valium always worked real well…lol…and lots of it!

my point…i am trying to make it…lol…is that even today, if something comes up that is stressful, or threatens my peace…which i consider to be conditioning of course…my breathing is automatically effected…

so, even though the actual physical damage that was done might be better, my conditioned response to stress, triggers the memory of the reaction fullblown…

like the rats, they did not need an actual dose of poisen to react…and then get sick…i did not need an actual baby pressing against my diaphragm for the emotional response to be triggered and to feel the full impact physically…like the rats got sick anyways, i can't breath right…lol…(of course today i use deep breathing, and breath my way out of not being able to breath, and i am convinced that these blockages are all energy related, as it relates to the shadows still stored in my body.)

i hope that makes sense to anyone reading…rotflmao…and breathing much better already…lol

over time, the condition has gotten much better, and maybe all those releases contributed to that, but i am amazed that when it hits, and it still does sometimes, that it hits with the same vengence, it ever did…

one final thought…maybe, it is that very pain that i experienced as a child, that is stored in my body and deep psyche…it was overwhelming fear, not being able to breath, and just utter and complete helplessness…so, it would make sense that anything i find the least bit threatening, can trigger that, and unleash all the reactions to that memory, but not necessarily the memory itself…make sense?

rolfing is very productive, but it can also be dangerous…in more ways than one…

many years ago, i use to apply it to myself constantly, and since i did not really know what i was doing, i would overly apply and have bruises all over me, and stayed sick  a lot, because of the release of toxins within my system…i was desperate…what can i tell you?  lol…not so much these days…and i have a better understanding of it…

also, rolfing is not the 'end all' cure…as when those emotional traumas are released, seems that there has to be some recognition psychologically, for them to have a lasting benefit…or else, as in my case, the initial cause will continue to manifest…those deeply seated traumas are slow in coming to the surface…and that can be a good thing…too much at once can prove to be unhealthy…

i am not sure about all of this, but it seems that there has to be a reprogramming of the neurons that fire and trigger these places in the brain…for it to have complete results…i dunno…but that seems plausible…

it is like an alcoholic or drug addict has to reprogram their thoughts…certain situations tend to trigger the desire to use, and the better able they are at reprogramming what they think, the better chance they have at staying sober…via the 12 steps…

have you ever seen the movie 'Click'?  there is a deeper level of understanding within the superficial nonsense of the movie…when Adam Chandler first gets the remote…he is ecstatic to find that he can speed things up that he finds unpleasant…

so, he begins to do this during fights with his wife, things he doesn't have time for with his children, etc…

what eventually happens, is that the remote begins making assumptions, based on his prior behavior, and automatically adjusts accordingly…i think our brain does the same thing…

he finds himself automatically skipping the massages and 'foreplay' of love-making with his wife…and well, you get my drift…LOL…what i was mostly made aware of while watching this movie, is how i had learned to 'click' through much of my life, because i was not able to face it at the time…i tend to believe that many are in the same situation…

modern pharmaceuticals are largely abused…in my experience, they block the mind from experiencing its own conditioning…now, in some cases this may be necessary…i can remember going through a time in the 90's when had i not had prescription drugs, and lots of them, i really don't think i would have survived…but there has been and still is the tendency to over medicate that which the medical profession has yet to find sufficient treatment or understanding of…this involves lots of so-called 'mental' and 'emotional' illnesses, that manifest also physically…

Learning to be present with our breathing - recognizing how our breathing patterns actually constitute our being - is something every child should be taught right along side the alphabet.

i agree completely with this, however; just teaching children how to breath, will not keep those 'real' monsters from creeping into their bedrooms in the middle of the night…and doing real psychological and physical damage…we have to teach them how to think for themselves, by doing exactly what you said on that other thread in J's blog in response to Adam's post…teaching them that they have a voice…and within themselves they can discover the most amazing power and that power can be tapped into…(i am not talking about anything magical here, just to clarify…although in fairness, it can seem to be magical at times…lol)

even that does not guarantee that the conditions that a child is surrounded by wont overpower and overwhelm them at some point…there is a bigger issue here…more potent in nature that threatens to repeat itself continually…and i am not at all certain there is presently a healthy and feasible way to address it…

preventive health-care is important, and i see many trying to accomplish this…it's a start, but if you look at the statistics of heart disease and obesity, drug addiction, alcoholism, diabetes…OMB…add infinitum…we are no closer to winning the war on this than we are on terrorism…most of it has to do with patients that are addicted to America's self-indulgent syndrome…this is an entire post within itself…lol…we have gotten use to instant gratification…we've become a society that would rather get an operation or take a pill…then to take a walk and stop eatting foods that are killing us…go figure…

health-care issues tie into environmental concerns…every system effects the other…and addressing just one, or thinking that we can fix just the major ones…we ignore the rest…and everything is still off balance…

It is one of those things I think society is learning about what “healthcare” really means: not treating diseased people, but fostering healthy lifestyles to make sure they don't become sick to begin with!

we have to begin with the very foundation…again, all organized religions and humanitarian efforts, and many health-care systems  are aimed at this very thing…but the very cure, becomes a big part of the illness…

before many of these issues can be addressed, people have to have their basic needs met…and be taught how to think responsibly, and for themselves…so that they can care for themselves and their children in a responsible way…we must feed these needs, but by doing so, we must not take from them their own responsibily of feeding their own needs…

we do not have the right to tell others what they should or should not believe…but we have an obligation to encourage others to think for themselves…anyways…thnx for this avenue of discussion Matt…star…

Matt and Star

Great conversation.

For a fairly recent, detailed, scientific and slightly different take on mind / brain synchronous correlation, check this out.

James, can you correlate your knowledge of that writing, and weave it into a real experience…such as how it might relate to what we have been discussing?

i appreciate that you guys love to discuss the intellectual aspects…and i think that's cool…but for it to make a realistic impression, would it not be more applicable if the knowledge is woven into a 'living' experience?…make sense?

Yes Star it would….I'll revisit this and see if I can offer anything more ….embodied(?)

Matt, I think the link to that paper is a corrupted link. Star and I have both had probelms wth it. Really sorry!  Shall I just remove it?